Higher rate premium charge

[Lutruwita]

I see Clickbait Caan did a video on it, but to put that into perspective it's a lot of hyperbole as he never reached the higher rate threshold.

Hes not on 40% level?? How is that possible?

My thoughts!?

[deestar]

It would be more interesting to talk about how to avoid it, as I firmly believe if you have a long enough run it, you can. The higher rate only applies if you are really really efficient at winning. I.e. have a very high strike rate.

https://www.betfairtradingblog.com/betf ... ned-part2/

Bombshell about CB aside this is a hot topic for me as I'm basically on the threshold from PC1 to PC2. I've tried lots of things to keep the commission rate up but never anywhere near the 40% required. Base level is currently sitting just under 20% and has been for about a year topped up to the 20 by PC1.

But as you can see that was because I started from a losing base for many years before I started taking this seriously. Although I'll keep taking mitigating action, psychologically I've accepted the inevitable. It helps that I've split my approaches into Core (essentially all automated trading) and Non-Core (trailing of new ideas, breakeven turnover strategies, manual trades, even positive and negative API errors etc)

The former is what I consider income and only ever pay myself from, everything else works as mitigation, and has built a bank to fund the PC over time. Makes paying it less painful. But ultimately I'm holding out for them to change the rules around PC2. Could be holding out for a long time I guess.

Lifetime Net Profit.jpg

Lifetime Com%.jpg

[gazuty]

I'm basically on the threshold from PC1 to PC2.

Massive gold star for making it to the threshold of PC2. So few do. Mostly it’s virgins talking about sex.

[Trader Pat]

Mostly it’s virgins talking about sex.

[Euler]

But as you can see that was because I started from a losing base for many years before I started taking this seriously. Although I'll keep taking mitigating action, psychologically I've accepted the inevitable. It helps that I've split my approaches into Core (essentially all automated trading) and Non-Core (trailing of new ideas, breakeven turnover strategies, manual trades, even positive and negative API errors etc)

Well done on that turnaround. Looks very similar to Shaun Whites track record. I guess there is often a lot of experimentation before a decent strategy is found. But its really great to see!

From the recent Q&A Betfair did, it seemed they were not going to drop the charge if anything takes steps to enforce it more. So I wouldn't wait for a change.

Is the bottom graph commission generated %?

If you are some way off, you can churn and use zero commission offers on other exchanges to rack up lots of wins and losses and still break even. If you work hard, you may be able to sqeeuze some profit out of it. But it's a lot of work, but worth it if it helps mitigate some of the charge.

When I went on the highest rate, I initially threw a hissy fit, but then started to work out how to move as quickly as possible from 60% to 40%. So I did the above and also started some long term value betting. That allowed me to move quickly from the top rate down to the 'lowest' top rate. But as it was effectively retrospective for me, I've got no chance of getting lower. It's just impossible. But that was ultimately the aim of the charge from Befair's perspective.

If you are on a lower base or have losses they you should be able to work up a decent percentage, but to mitigate all means adopting break even strategies with a lower strike rate. But it's almost like you have to work twice as hard to just mitigate some of it.

[deestar]

But as you can see that was because I started from a losing base for many years before I started taking this seriously. Although I'll keep taking mitigating action, psychologically I've accepted the inevitable. It helps that I've split my approaches into Core (essentially all automated trading) and Non-Core (trailing of new ideas, breakeven turnover strategies, manual trades, even positive and negative API errors etc)

Is the bottom graph commission generated %?

If you are some way off, you can churn and use zero commission offers on other exchanges to rack up lots of wins and losses and still break even. If you work hard, you may be able to sqeeuze some profit out of it. But it's a lot of work, but worth it if it helps mitigate some of the charge.

Thanks. I literally had a Eureka moment back in 2014 and things clicked from there.
Yes the bottom graph is Com generated %. Currently sitting at 19.7% before PC paid.
I do a lot of breakeven churn, but the effort and the variance can be hard to stomach.

Interesting you took away that perspective from the Q&A. I saw this response and had some hope:
"The tenure piece for customers is one we are reviewing specifically at the moment, I totally empathise that for long standing customers some of the criteria don't work"

But not holding my breath for sure.

[Leeds1919]

But as you can see that was because I started from a losing base for many years before I started taking this seriously. Although I'll keep taking mitigating action, psychologically I've accepted the inevitable. It helps that I've split my approaches into Core (essentially all automated trading) and Non-Core (trailing of new ideas, breakeven turnover strategies, manual trades, even positive and negative API errors etc)

Well done on that turnaround. Looks very similar to Shaun Whites track record. I guess there is often a lot of experimentation before a decent strategy is found. But its really great to see!

From the recent Q&A Betfair did, it seemed they were not going to drop the charge if anything takes steps to enforce it more. So I wouldn't wait for a change.

Is the bottom graph commission generated %?

If you are some way off, you can churn and use zero commission offers on other exchanges to rack up lots of wins and losses and still break even. If you work hard, you may be able to sqeeuze some profit out of it. But it's a lot of work, but worth it if it helps mitigate some of the charge.

When I went on the highest rate, I initially threw a hissy fit, but then started to work out how to move as quickly as possible from 60% to 40%. So I did the above and also started some long term value betting. That allowed me to move quickly from the top rate down to the 'lowest' top rate. But as it was effectively retrospective for me, I've got no chance of getting lower. It's just impossible. But that was ultimately the aim of the charge from Befair's perspective.

If you are on a lower base or have losses they you should be able to work up a decent percentage, but to mitigate all means adopting break even strategies with a lower strike rate. But it's almost like you have to work twice as hard to just mitigate some of it.

Some great advice there!

Any advice for someone like me who overall has a losing lifetime P&L but feels like their finally getting a handle on things.

Should I stay on the 2% commission plan or should I move up to 5%? Also how do you find out how much comm you're paying in total? Is it just a case of manually making a note of the commission in every market of is there an easier way?

Ta

[ShaunWhite]

Is there a transcript of the Betfair Q&A somewhere?

Very very well done deestar. And really interesting to see you've got my 'problem'.... Returns stubbornly stuck at a level but improved efficiency so you're paying less comm than you were. That chart looks super smooth but I know exactly how you must have felt living through the wobbles in real-time. I think that's the curse of automation, you can wake up one day and it's gone, but a manual trader's skills never just get up and leave.

[ShaunWhite]

Some great advice there!

Any advice for someone like me who overall has a losing lifetime P&L but feels like their finally getting a handle on things.

Should I stay on the 2% commission plan or should I move up to 5%? Also how do you find out how much comm you're paying in total? Is it just a case of manually making a note of the commission in every market of is there an easier way?

Ta

Stay on 2%. You'll pay the weekly top up to 20% anyway whatever base level you choose.

One of the account transaction reports shows your comm paid but I forget which one. And when you go net lifetime +ve you'll get access to your PC page even if you're not paying it. Early losses are great for your overall comm/gross ratio so that's some comfort.

[deestar]

Is there a transcript of the Betfair Q&A somewhere?

Very very well done deestar. And really interesting to see you've got my 'problem'.... Returns stubbornly stuck at a level but improved efficiency so you're paying less comm than you were. That chart looks super smooth but I know exactly how you must have felt living through the wobbles in real-time. I think that's the curse of automation, you can wake up one day and it's gone, but a manual trader's skills never just get up and leave.

Cheers. It's a good problem to have. There has been a few wobbles for sure.

It's on the Betfair forum
https://community.betfair.com/service/g ... -in-closed

[Leeds1919]

Stay on 2%. You'll pay the weekly top up to 20% anyway whatever base level you choose.

One of the account transaction reports shows your comm paid but I forget which one. And when you go net lifetime +ve you'll get access to your PC page even if you're not paying it. Early losses are great for your overall comm/gross ratio so that's some comfort.

Ta Shaun

So I'm wrong in thinking going up to 8% would mean more commission paid long term towards PC?

[Euler]

Betfair have this silly thing called 'commission generated' which basically calculates your contribution as 3% commission flat.

If you stay at 2%, then Betfair roll that up to 3%, but at 8% you would only benefit by 3% of your contribution. So don't do that!

[Leeds1919]

Betfair have this silly thing called 'commission generated' which basically calculates your contribution as 3% commission flat.

If you stay at 2%, then Betfair roll that up to 3%, but at 8% you would only benefit by 3% of your contribution. So don't do that!

Ok 8% is bad gotcha!

Is there any benefit to 5% rather than 2% in terms of counting towards PC long term? Or is 2% the way to go?

[HorseDark]

Betfair have this silly thing called 'commission generated' which basically calculates your contribution as 3% commission flat.

If you stay at 2%, then Betfair roll that up to 3%, but at 8% you would only benefit by 3% of your contribution. So don't do that!

Ok 8% is bad gotcha!

Is there any benefit to 5% rather than 2% in terms of counting towards PC long term? Or is 2% the way to go?

2% gets rounded up to 3%

5% gets rounded down to 3%

8% gets rounded down to 3%

In terms of the PC calculation, there is no benifit in paying anything more that 3%

[Leeds1919]

Ok 2% is the plan to be on

Ta lads