'Betfair millionaires'

[firlandsfarm]

In another thread alexmr2 wrote …

If a tax is introduced on top of this [the Betfair Premium Charge], pros are going to be taking home what, <30% of their profit? I don't see many people sticking around putting millions in turnover through the markets just to get back the average household income.

I'm just curious, you hear of these 'Betfair millionaires' but what do they actually do? You have to assume they have BOTs. Probably lots of BOTs but what are they trawling for? I would find it difficult to believe they are taking punts looking for race winners (or losers if laying). Do they just do similar things that we do with automation in BA but have more sophisticated BOTs and algorithms? Is anyone here one of them! Are they putting down so many transactions that they are happy to make very small margins per trade because a thousand small margins makes a big margin?

As I said I'm just curious.

[eightbo]

Quants

[napshnap]

Do they just do similar things that we do with automation in BA but have more sophisticated BOTs and algorithms?

Yes.

Is anyone here one of them!

There are a few people here.

Are they putting down so many transactions that they are happy to make very small margins per trade because a thousand small margins makes a big margin?

Yes and when you'll reach higer PC levels, 1000 bets per hour limit will not be applied to you anymore. This opens a few possibilities I guess

[Derek27]

I understand what you mean by the title but it's always puzzled me why 'millionaire' is used as a milestone or benchmark. I'd be more than happy if I had £900K, even if it doesn't qualify me to join the club.

[ShaunWhite]

If a tax is introduced on top of this [the Betfair Premium Charge], pros are going to be taking home what, <30% of their profit? I don't see many people sticking around putting millions in turnover through the markets just to get back the average household income.

Since when has 30% of a million in profit been an average household income?

[PDC]

If a tax is introduced on top of this [the Betfair Premium Charge], pros are going to be taking home what, <30% of their profit? I don't see many people sticking around putting millions in turnover through the markets just to get back the average household income.

Since when has 30% of a million in profit been an average household income?

He hasn't said it was. He said <30% of their profits, he didn't give a figure other than saying they would get the average household income. He did say millions in turnover but that isn't profits.

[ShaunWhite]

I know that's what he said in the posting text 'milionS in turnover' but I took the title 'Betfair millionaires' to be people who actually earned a million (gross?). If betfair millionaires just means turnover then there's loads of us who'd qualify. 30% of gross profit is still a decent amount compared to most businesses.

[PDC]

The post you quoted and the thread title were done by different people, the quoted text was lifted from another thread. So some cross wires I think. I don't think anyone was suggesting ~£300k is the average household income.

[ShaunWhite]

I'm sure we'd agree once the wires are uncrossed. It's all just other people's problems anyway.

[Derek27]

If Betfair users were taxed it's likely that Betfair's tax bill would be reduced substantially and likewise PC, a chunk of which is for paying tax.

[Euler]

Based on my discussion with Bet Angel users there are quite a few who have paid more than £1m in commission, so plenty out there and some are on here.

[alexmr2]

I'm just curious, you hear of these 'Betfair millionaires' but what do they actually do?

Misunderstanding when I mentioned "millions in turnover" in the other thread I didn't mean millions in profit in a single year. You'd be surprised how much money you have to put through the market relative to the end profit. The turnover is also significantly more than your bank because you are putting the stakes through over and over. You can check this by clicking on the markets you traded in on your P&L stats. For someone trading full time as a career, they are certain to reach millions in turnover, and eventually >£1 million in profit after being in the game for some time

Using "millionaire" can be quite an ambiguous term as some people would define it as having a net worth of several million rather than someone putting millions of pounds worth of stakes through the markets

I have no idea what the biggest players do that apparently make that much money but I know they won't be sharing it. One thing that we know for certain is that 0.1% of Betfair users have surpassed £250k profit and pay the higher commission rate

[alexmr2]

If a tax is introduced on top of this [the Betfair Premium Charge], pros are going to be taking home what, <30% of their profit? I don't see many people sticking around putting millions in turnover through the markets just to get back the average household income.

Since when has 30% of a million in profit been an average household income?

My thoughts were that an "arbitrary" typical pro trader earning £100k in one year would pay 60% premium charge leaving £,40k and then be taxed down to £30k if both the higher rate PC and income tax applied as discussed on the other thread. The millions part came from assuming that to achieve £100k net profit, the turnover would certainly be over £1 million worth of stakes although the turnover is slightly irrelevant as it is completely different to a trading bankroll

[Derek27]

My thoughts were that an "arbitrary" typical pro trader earning £100k in one year would pay 60% premium charge leaving £,40k and then be taxed down to £30k if both the higher rate PC and income tax applied as discussed on the other thread. The millions part came from assuming that to achieve £100k net profit, the turnover would certainly be over £1 million worth of stakes although the turnover is slightly irrelevant as it is completely different to a trading bankroll

I regret not holding on to my trading records in the early years of using Betfair, but off memory, I had a bank of £500 - £1000 and my turnover was between £250k and £500k a month. Some of those months I just made £200, others I made a loss!

Turnover is an important statistic in relation to gambling profits but I've always regarded it as meaningless in comparison to trading profits. I'm sure I have a massive amount traded on break-even markets that I don't even log in my market database.

[ShaunWhite]

Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity.