Position in Queue and Last Trade

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pmanso
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 9:01 am

Hi,

I use Betangel and I'm very satisfied, however there's always space to improve. I found in a new product I tested 2 columns in the ladder:

- PIQ (Position in Queue) which gives the information of the position of your money in the queue, this information is great for positions with large amounts of money waiting to be matched;
- Last trade, which is the amount of the last trade.

I found this 2 columns very interesting and I think it would be great to have them in Betangel.

Thanks.
AmazingMisterX
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:35 am

I asked the question about PIQ before and was told it can be done but is not very accurate.
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Euler
Posts: 24701
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Location: Bet Angel HQ

AmazingMisterX wrote:I asked the question about PIQ before and was told it can be done but is not very accurate.
That's correct, it's a nice gimmick but useless as a trading tool. Several of us have tried creating variations at many times in the past but it was never considered a sensible candidate for commercial release. XM pretty much killed any chance of working our que position.

Easy to implement the other feature.
pmanso
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 9:01 am

In the tool that I mentioned it seems very accurate, at least so it seems in the examples I have made. And if its accurate I don't agree at all that is useless as a trading tool, it's the opposite, it would be a great feature, at least for pre-match trading, which is my case.
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Euler
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Location: Bet Angel HQ

We know the calculation being used and could easily implement it, but its just a warning that it is inaccurate and shouldn't be relied on, even if we put it in Bet Angel.

Betfair are about to make some changes on football that will make it even less reliable. So please be aware of that when you trade.
pmanso
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 9:01 am

But is this being considered? Even you saying it's not inaccurate I believe it would be very useful for pre-match high volume matches.
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anitajane007
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:42 am
Location: Sheffield

I have also used position in queue in Geeks toy and it was accurate down to the last pound, it would be nice if the choice to have it was there :)
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

If BA know the formula used, but are not convinced it's 100% accurate, then still offer it, but draw people's attention to it being a rough guide only

Tennis trader is a fantastic tool, but it's not always 100% accurate - I still always use it as a guide though

PIQ would be a nice little touch IMO

** The only issue I have, is that IMO XM has distorted the picture and it appears absolutely baffling as to why my trade hasn't been matched sometimes.
Also, due to me questioning the integrity of BF, and knowing how they will do anything to bring money in, I'm convinced some dishonesty is taking place and people are jumping the queue.....either themselves or somebody else who has paid a premium for the service
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kelpie
Posts: 341
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LeTiss 4pm wrote:I'm convinced some dishonesty is taking place and people are jumping the queue.....either themselves or somebody else who has paid a premium for the service
I'm also convinced dishonesty is taking place.

The only bit I can't put my finger on (yet) is if betfair are using bots to engineer edges out of the market (ie, yet more tax on profitable customers) or are running a behind-closed doors team that trade with guaranteed first place in the queues and sight of other traders repetitive positions (ie, automations).

The latter would explain the queue jumping but does expose betfair to whistleblowers...

If betfair are also running a team of traders with crooked advantages, they would have to park the profits somewhere on their books. "Other miscellaneous trading profits" or something like that. Anyone familiar with their accounting items?

Either way, I think it's betfair that are the source of the crookery.
LinusP
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:45 pm

I agree Kelpie, the advert I posted the other day basically says that they trade the markets. It would be easy for them to have a team of PHD students working there own accounts and just not charge them any commission.
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Euler
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I put a poll up on the blog about this to test the water in terms of peoples interpretation of things and it's pretty resounding so far, though not many voters.
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kelpie
Posts: 341
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:40 am

Euler wrote:I put a poll up on the blog about this to test the water in terms of peoples interpretation of things and it's pretty resounding so far, though not many voters.
100% say betfair are active in their markets :lol:

Unsurprised - I think everyone sense what's going on these days

Suggestion on the question, perhaps? "Do betfair trade against their users?"
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LeTiss
Posts: 5386
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Peter, your question asks "Are BF active in their markets?"

It doesn't ask "Are BF using their position to jump queues when trading their own markets?"

That's what's being discussed here!
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Euler
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Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:39 pm
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We started looking at PIQ many years ago. The key problems we saw were:-

Cancellation of orders. You can cancel an order and there is no way of working out that this happened.

Scratched orders. If you scratch a trade, I scratch a lot, then matched bet volume remains unchanged but the queue position changes.

Then the elephant in the room cross matching. Especially on small markets like football you have no idea which one of three (in the match odds market) is getting matched and where that sits in the queue, so it becomes impossible to work out where you order on your selection is on the queue across all three selections. Almost impossible.

We've looked at a number of solutions over a decade but the only real solution is if Betfair expose the order book properly. In the absence of that it will only be a guess as to where you are in the queue. We've tested all current solutions including our own and they don't retain much more predictive power than WOM TBH. We done some very clever things but they can't overcome the three issues listed above. The last test we did showed if you put two orders and monitored PIQ using the most common accepted way of looking at it, it was random which one would fill first if you applied them to an equally sized queue.

Happy to implement it, but it will come with a warning to not be reliant on it. Rather than a sales pitch on the feature itself!
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Euler
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LeTiss 4pm wrote:Peter, your question asks "Are BF active in their markets?"

It doesn't ask "Are BF using their position to jump queues when trading their own markets?"

That's what's being discussed here!
That can be question 2 ;)
Last edited by Euler on Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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