The Difference Between Open-Minded and Close-Minded People

Trading is often about how to take the appropriate risk without exposing yourself to very human flaws.
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LeTiss
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Everybody is close-minded to a certain degree

Brexit is a good example - Remainers will classify the leavers as close-minded, but of course the Remainers are also close-minded for not understanding the reasons for people voting leave in the first place
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ruthlessimon
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:33 pm
It means you want to be armed with all the options before making a decision
That was the main reason I thought people who are too open-minded would struggle. They'd always second guess themselves after each decision, because they want to understand all the options - which is a trading nightmare!
ShaunWhite wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:33 pm
Even if they're both wrong, or both have equally correct but opposing views?
When I was writing that the vision in my head was science vs religion. But I'm closed minded as to which one of those is right. I mean clearly Muhammad went to heaven on a unicorn. If they're both wrong then... FSM!!
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ShaunWhite
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LeTiss wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:37 pm
Everybody is close-minded to a certain degree

Brexit is a good example - Remainers will classify the leavers as close-minded, but of course the Remainers are also close-minded for not understanding the reasons for people voting leave in the first place
I genuinly believe there are open-minded people on both sides LeTiss. But we each reach our different conclusions based on many different factors like life experiences and personal situations. The almost 50/50 answer we got says that either outcome with probably work out reasonably ok, exit predicted to be maybe a 1.8% better outcome. There would have been a much stronger bias if one way was a lot better than the other with millions of brains working on the problem.

I also believe that you're open-minded really, you must be to succeed as you've done. You've got an unconventional job, you were up for trying new things and failing in order to find the knack, you're on here looking for the occasional nugget that'll set off a new idea etc etc.

You just mistake your rapid, confident, no need to reassess, decision making for being closed-minded. I guarentee that you're adjusting how you trade month by month in your subconscious open-mind rather than just doing what you've always done with blinkers on. You wouldn't be a lone wolf, wheelin', dealin' and dodgin' to make a wage if you weren't open-minded LeTiss, don't be shy, admit it ;) Being open-minded and being 100% confident in your current beliefs are not incompatible.
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ShaunWhite
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:50 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:33 pm
It means you want to be armed with all the options before making a decision
That was the main reason I thought people who are too open-minded would struggle. They'd always second guess themselves after each decision, because they want to understand all the options - which is a trading nightmare!
That's a fair interpretation, and you're dead right, but I didn't quite mean it like that. I meant you will want to consider how new information affects your default position.

I've a feeling this has become an debate on semantics rather than disagreement about mindsets.

I read it as Open = Receptive, Closed = Unreceptive not Open = Weak, Closed = Assured.
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to75ne
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sounds like an extract from some corporate seminar. i can just imagine all the noddys in the audience nodding and smiling.
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LeTiss
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to75ne wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:39 am
sounds like an extract from some corporate seminar. i can just imagine all the noddys in the audience nodding and smiling.
That's exactly what I thought. When I worked in sales, I had to endure listening to numerous dickheads like this bloke. My company invariably payed a fortune for their services too
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LeTiss
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ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:23 am

You wouldn't be a lone wolf, wheelin', dealin' and dodgin' to make a wage if you weren't open-minded LeTiss, don't be shy, admit it ;) Being open-minded and being 100% confident in your current beliefs are not incompatible.
We basically agree on this then, because I mentioned earlier that it's all about getting the balance right. Of course I am open-minded at times, I've had to be to embrace my failings in this job, and then address them.

This article was suggesting that being closed-minded is a bad thing, but everybody in a decision making capacity has to be closed-minded in order to get anything done, which is what Simon was quite rightly suggesting
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Euler
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My definition has generally been that closed minded people see problems and open-minded opportunities. But you can't blunder into either frame of reference and ignore other factors, but that is open-minded perhaps?

I just think it seems to be a typical human error to dismisses evidence and use your own frame of reference without being able to see why people are saying something else. It takes a lot of effort, time and patience to see others viewpoints and take them into account. But also, changing your mind is often seen as a weakness when in fact it can be a huge positive.

I think most of my experience comes from having had to put up with closed minded people for most of my life. People are happy to tell why something is wrong or not possible and yet they haven't stopped for a moment to think that they could be wrong.

The best case in point is trading. Everybody thought I was mad and it wasn't possible and couldn't be done but I did it. Still, 17 years on people are still debating if I did it, do actually do it etc. etc. etc. In that time I've traded hundreds of millions through the market and made a small fortune, but the truly closed minded just can't accept that and will continue to argue forever that there was something amiss. The open mind will wonder how it was done. I know which I'd prefer to be.

I think the start of my journey was more about bloody mindedness than having a closed mind, but maybe you can argue they are somewhat the same. I knew what I was going to do and how, I just had to get on and do it.
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to75ne
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when does open minded become gullibility and when does closed minded become become so narrow that its an handicap ? personally i think you need a balance/combination of both.
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ShaunWhite
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to75ne wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:11 pm
when does open minded become gullibility and when does closed minded become become so narrow that its an handicap ? personally i think you need a balance/combination of both.
Open-minded AND gullible...sounds like the perfect blind date. ;)
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Euler
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Trading is impossible, here is the proof

http://bigthink.com/videos/tali-sharot- ... ation-bias
max_usted
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From the article
In fact, Sharot cites research from Yale University that disproves the idea that the social divisions we are experiencing right now—over climate change, gun control, or vaccines—are somehow the result of an intelligence gap: smart people are just as illogical, and what's more, they are even more skilled at skewing data to align with their beliefs.
Ha ha - totally agree with this, explains much of the behaviour of academia.
Iron
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:50 pm
I would love to see more vicious debates on the forum.
I don't wish to sound snide, but there is more than enough viciousness already, which is part of the reason why I rarely post here. I wouldn't object to a bit of constructiveness though. :)

As happens in social media generally, people often feel the need to defend their position at all costs (or their guru's), and often resort to sarcasm, ad hominem and other stuff that gives off more heat than light (and, yes, I've been guilty of that too - though not very often, I hope!).

However, it would be nice to have a rigorous discussion from time to time, along the lines, of 'this is my hypothesis, this is why I believe it, this is the evidence, what do you guys think?', followed by calm and constructive discussion.

The challenge, however, is that we are all fishing in a very small lake, and an edge shared is an edge halved, so I can understand people wanting to play their cards close to their chests.

I'm coming to realise that the market is far and away the best teacher. Forums like this can be a source of ideas, but you need to think critically and do independent research to find out what works. As Mugs has pointed out, traders can earn more than doctors, so you can reasonably expect to have to put in a bit of study before you're able to make decent money.

BTW, my mind is now more open than it used to be (though I used to consider myself extremely open minded, as I'm willing to think outside the box and take on sacred cows). The barriers the mind puts up can be hard to spot, such is the urge to defend a cherished belief.

Jeff

PS No, I'm not back. :)
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ruthlessimon
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Ferru123 wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:09 pm
'this is my hypothesis, this is why I believe it, this is the evidence, what do you guys think?', followed by calm and constructive discussion.
Why couldn't this be common knowledge? Or at least be taught in a course. The correct process of how an edge is created - from start to finish.

Switish is why I bring this point. As I'm sure you remember. He was craving the pros knowledge, & he was given it - but he still failed. & I know many traders who have gone down the same road. They have been given edges, gone on countless courses & still are no better than what they were before being mentored. How can this be?!? Moreover, I imagine it would be a universal skill - that could then be applied across every market. Crack how to make an edge properly, you crack how to trade every market on betfair.

The question is not "what does (top trader) know" it should be "how did (top trader) learn what he knows" & I think the "how" could certainly be more openly debated (i.e. modelling vs backtesting)
Iron
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:13 pm
Ferru123 wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:09 pm
'this is my hypothesis, this is why I believe it, this is the evidence, what do you guys think?', followed by calm and constructive discussion.
Why couldn't this be common knowledge? Or at least be taught in a course. The correct process of how an edge is created - from start to finish.
Perhaps it is taught in some courses, but I think that when people attend courses they expect to be given a peek behind the curtain - for the magician to reveal his hard earned secrets. X marks the spot and all that.

If you paid hundreds of pounds and went away with a lesson about the scientific method and the importance of doing loads of boring, repetitive testing to develop your edge before you make any real money, you might feel cheated.

I think that the people hosting courses genuinely want to teach something of use. But I suspect that the courses serve as a starting point - a source of ideas to investigate further (ideas which could be acquired FOC in forums and via videos). To paraphrase the title of a book, where are all the attendees' yachts?
ruthlessimon wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:13 pm
Switish is why I bring this point. As I'm sure you remember. He was craving the pros knowledge, & he was given it - but he still failed. & I know many traders who have gone down the same road. They have been given edges, gone on countless courses & still are no better than what they were before being mentored. How can this be?!?
An analogy.

I'm currently on a diet which could well see me lose 4 stone (safely!) by Christmas if I stick to it.

The devil is in the 'if'. The problem is your inner chimp, which, as the book by the same name points out, is, like a real chimp, 10 times stronger than you.

So mental discipline is part of the challenge - sticking with your plan. The road from hell to heaven can be long and painful, but not the road in the other direction, and you need to find ways of avoid being tripped up by your own mind.

But also, knowing in general terms what someone else does is, of itself, not an edge. For example, Switesh will have known that Peter likes to oppose trends. However, if he went long whenever there was a strong downtrend, he will have been steamrollered more often than not. What Switesh perhaps should have instead done is asked questions like 'What things might indicate that the current trend is about to reverse?' and come up with a clear strategy.

Jeff
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