Botty Challenges

[mcgoo]

Took a break from dogs and focusing on cricket & the horses atm - just manual trading to get a better feel for the markets & come up with ideas - which I'm writing down in a book beside the desk so I don't forget )

Will go back to botting the dogs soon but been enjoying the break & hope to go back refreshed - it was a bit of hit physiologically seeing the dog bot go up in flames....

33 rules! Must be fun trying to unpick that one )

One of the problems I have is knowing when to stop from a are the rules optimised point of view... i.e. do I make the parameters looser or tighter - I sure in the past I've scrubbed good ideas due to small sample sizes or too conservative an approach etc...

Yes, that is an issue. I am sure I have done similar over the years. Tonight''s results looking ok so far:
Greyhound Racing / Trar (AUS) 7th Sep : R5 525m Heat 07-Sep-18 20:15 07-Sep-18 20:16 -0.20
Greyhound Racing / Trar (AUS) 7th Sep : R4 395m Gr4/5 07-Sep-18 19:55 07-Sep-18 19:56 0.28
Greyhound Racing / Dubb (AUS) 7th Sep : R3 400m Rest 07-Sep-18 19:25 07-Sep-18 19:26 0.15
Greyhound Racing / Bend (AUS) 7th Sep : R12 425m Gr5 07-Sep-18 18:58 07-Sep-18 18:59 0.29
Greyhound Racing / Bend (AUS) 7th Sep : R7 500m Gr5 07-Sep-18 17:17 07-Sep-18 17:18 -0.06
Greyhound Racing / Ipsw (AUS) 7th Sep : R3 431m Nvce 07-Sep-18 16:17 07-Sep-18 16:19 0.28
Horse Racing / GlPk (AUS) 7th Sep : R2 1730m Pace M 07-Sep-18 19:50 07-Sep-18 19:53 -0.33
Horse Racing / Bend (AUS) 7th Sep : R5 2150m Pace M 07-Sep-18 19:30 07-Sep-18 19:35 0.56
Horse Racing / Bend (AUS) 7th Sep : R4 1650m Pace M 07-Sep-18 19:00 07-Sep-18 19:04 0.20
Horse Racing / Newc (AUS) 7th Sep : R1 2030m Pace M 07-Sep-18 17:43 07-Sep-18 17:46 0.09
Horse Racing / Tunc (AUS) 7th Sep : R8 1200m Hcap 07-Sep-18 17:10 07-Sep-18 17:13 0.10
Horse Racing / Canb (AUS) 7th Sep : R7 1280m Hcap 07-Sep-18 16:55 07-Sep-18 17:12 -0.25
Horse Racing / Tunc (AUS) 7th Sep : R7 2100m Cup 07-Sep-18 16:35 07-Sep-18 16:40 0.46
Horse Racing / APrk (AUS) 7th Sep : R4 1660m Pace M 07-Sep-18 16:23 07-Sep-18 16:26 0.23

..but been here before ..yes 33 rules..it's keeping track of all the Signals and SV's that breaks my brain
Is a tough tough game. I feel like I am gaining on it a bit but one has to be dynamic that's for sure. My tennis bot is caning me at the mo.Good luck

[mcgoo]

Horse bot has way too many rules but I enjoy the tinkering. Question for the ''automa---trons' among us..I have seen some strange goings on with matched bets not being detected as matched (for 10 seconds or more even-which completely wrecks count numbers etc), multiple bets, offset bets being placed when fill or kill is set and there's clearly no matched bet etc-and that was all today. I check and re-check the logic and log everything and then analyse logs for ages along with tracking bet id's.There will be long runs of things working and then boom..something odd. I have seen market refreshes slowing and BA gets sluggish sometimes and thought this could be the problem i.e. delays. -you can also see delayed clock countdowns. I improved things re up'íng the refresh to 200ms from 40ms so...What's the general feeling re polling vs streaming for automation? I am thinking about trying polling in case it is more stable Appreciate thoughts/advice .Cheers

[Dabbla]

Horse bot has way too many rules but I enjoy the tinkering. Question for the ''automa---trons' among us..I have seen some strange goings on with matched bets not being detected as matched (for 10 seconds or more even-which completely wrecks count numbers etc), multiple bets, offset bets being placed when fill or kill is set and there's clearly no matched bet etc-and that was all today. I check and re-check the logic and log everything and then analyse logs for ages along with tracking bet id's.There will be long runs of things working and then boom..something odd. I have seen market refreshes slowing and BA gets sluggish sometimes and thought this could be the problem i.e. delays. -you can also see delayed clock countdowns. I improved things re up'íng the refresh to 200ms from 40ms so...What's the general feeling re polling vs streaming for automation? I am thinking about trying polling in case it is more stable Appreciate thoughts/advice .Cheers

Are you storing a lot of numbers to the log? I’m pretty sure that has an effect on refresh etc. My advice would be to only store numbers to the log when first testing. If things work well then don’t log any more.

[sionascaig]

Horse bot has way too many rules but I enjoy the tinkering. Question for the ''automa---trons' among us..I have seen some strange goings on with matched bets not being detected as matched (for 10 seconds or more even-which completely wrecks count numbers etc), multiple bets, offset bets being placed when fill or kill is set and there's clearly no matched bet etc-and that was all today. I check and re-check the logic and log everything and then analyse logs for ages along with tracking bet id's.There will be long runs of things working and then boom..something odd. I have seen market refreshes slowing and BA gets sluggish sometimes and thought this could be the problem i.e. delays. -you can also see delayed clock countdowns. I improved things re up'íng the refresh to 200ms from 40ms so...What's the general feeling re polling vs streaming for automation? I am thinking about trying polling in case it is more stable Appreciate thoughts/advice .Cheers

The only times I've come across this are when: 1. Internet issue, 2. Betfair issue, 3. Streaming issue.... all of which may be related...

The usual solutions for me are: 1. Switch to polling (and maybe switch back), 2. Check the connection speeds when polling (at bottom of betangel ladder screen). 3 Resync internet clock (using the network time sync tool that Euler posted a while back), 4. Check status on betfair...

Usually its when I'm manual trading that I've noticed so not sure what implications are for botting. Would be a bit concerned if you moved to polling for automation as may hit no. of bet caps per hour charges depending on what you are doing?

The only obvious solution is just to stop botting if you can identify when it occurs?

[Jukebox]

Restricting the refresh so the bot can concentrate on the matter in hand without updating other events unecessarily is important if you have a bot that is expected to react quickly in response to changes.

[ShaunWhite]

Question for the ''automa---trons' among us..I have seen some strange goings on with matched bets not being detected as matched (for 10 seconds or more even-which completely wrecks count numbers etc)

It's unlikely to be anything you'll have much control over. Occassionally BF does take a while to respond, even up to a minute. Unfortunately it's just one of those things and any system requiring comms needs to expect the unexpected. You just have to either code around it by keeping as much info stored locally as pos or accept it as one of those things.

Like most glitches, if you have enough of them they should balance out eventually. It's bearable in a BF bot, but imagine what it was like doing settlements, custody changes or swift/bacs transfers! There's no 'it'll balance out' when they bug out. 'Fortunately' I was doing all that when comms was two bean cans and a piece of string so I naturally assume the worst and code defensively. Thats' a good default positon for any automation actually, assume it won't work properly.

[mcgoo]

thanks for the replies folks-very thought provoking as always. Accepting worse case has settled my mind a bit
I have the time sync tool going and restrict refresh on. I am logging a fair amount but not so much as not to be able to read the logic. The switching between polling and streaming is something I'll try
I have to rules to place bets and 13 to manage the bet after placement Defensive coding is definitely the order of the day . I saw the bot recover from a 37% loss( before more defensive coding) and go back into profit over the next 4 races so I am hopeful.The last race last night made 14% on stake so fingers crossed.Thanks again
Now if I can just get my tennis edge sorted
Edit: The subtleties are amazing...cue the unmatched bet time condition

[sionascaig]

Given that the betangel software can display the connection speeds with betfair, just wondering if in a future release they could be made available in automation conditions. This would allow you to send an alert, stop placing bets, attempt to close position. Would this help?

[mcgoo]

Given that the betangel software can display the connection speeds with betfair, just wondering if in a future release they could be made available in automation conditions. This would allow you to send an alert, stop placing bets, attempt to close position. Would this help?

I think it could-would be interesting to try anyway
I just found a fatal flaw in a legacy signal (from an older bot darn it ). Streamlined the rules a bit-down to 32 (I had drifted up to around 36) and reduced the logging noise a little. I just watched it make $1.11 (7 trades) on a pace market . I noticed that if I edit the file too much while the bot is active, the clock starts sticking-at least that appears to be the correlation. Anyway-watching.It is very active..almost every market.Will see how we go
Edit: Just watched it lose 46c on a madly erratic pace market (6 trades) . Behaved like a thing of beauty though

[ShaunWhite]

Given that the betangel software can display the connection speeds with betfair, just wondering if in a future release they could be made available in automation conditions. This would allow you to send an alert, stop placing bets, attempt to close position. Would this help?

The problem isn't the connection speed it's the acknowledgement of bets being received or matched. Those messages can be delayed even if the stream is working perfectly. It's like the postman calling every day but you only get the flyers and not the letters.

[LinusP]

Given that the betangel software can display the connection speeds with betfair, just wondering if in a future release they could be made available in automation conditions. This would allow you to send an alert, stop placing bets, attempt to close position. Would this help?

The problem isn't the connection speed it's the acknowledgement of bets being received or matched. Those messages can be delayed even if the stream is working perfectly. It's like the postman calling every day but you only get the flyers and not the letters.

How often do you see this? As it isn’t ‘normal’, ignoring outages I have no issues from the API, especially from the stream it is very quick in match updates.

[ShaunWhite]

How often do you see this? As it isn’t ‘normal’, ignoring outages I have no issues from the API, especially from the stream it is very quick in match updates.

tbh I haven't seen it personally because I haven't gone live with my api stuff yet. It's just something i read in viewtopic.php?f=55&t=9319&p=107672&hilit=60#p107672

[sionascaig]

How often do you see this? As it isn’t ‘normal’, ignoring outages I have no issues from the API, especially from the stream it is very quick in match updates.

tbh I haven't seen it personally because I haven't gone live with my api stuff yet. It's just something i read in viewtopic.php?f=55&t=9319&p=107672&hilit=60#p107672

It was the "responsiveness of calls to betfair when retrieving bets / prices" number(s) that I was thinking about. For me it usually sits around 30 to 50 ms but can go over 3500 - which is when I usually start seeing issues and switch to polling (and then see the response speeds)...

I'm not directly connected to a modem so connections for me is a bit of a weak spot... In terms of frequency not seen it for a while but is usually associated with a post on the "issues with betfair" thread - maybe that would give an indication of frequency?

(thanks for the postman example Sean - didn't appreciate that)

Still sounds to me that access to the responsiveness numbers maybe worthwhile from an automation point of view though as if there is a significant delay do you not still want to know about it?

[Adriaan]

Morning
Just a few thoughts...
On any bot, worthwhile looking a at the full bet history from your bet fair account (keep records even if yo make a subtle change). Extract to excel and analyse......then check to see if you had only placed the back bets or only placed the lay bets would you have been in profit? Can tell you a lot over the course of time
Also, if you do have to green up, only use the reverse setting..yes, you won't get everyone matched, but that will equal itself over time. Everytime you green at current odds, you are potentially throwing money away
Regards
Peter

Hi Peter,

I came accross your post and I have been experimenting with bots on football matches. I have used the reverse green up setting a few times. But when there's another goal my bet is removed and greening up won't work. When allowing the green up condition to fire more than once, my bot greens up multiple times.

Should I add another condition to my bot to prevent my bot from greening up multiple times?

[mcgoo]

Horse bot did better yesterday.Was $6 up at one point and I thought I was " off to the races"cough ..then it dropped back to $1 overall over 69 markets. I found a glitch in the matrix though with my checkpoint match bets logic . It was hitting the checkpoint too soon and not cancelling unmatched bets like I planned. Cue unmatched bet time condition again.Amazing that it can run over that many markets and not get caned.Hopefully it continues to do better.Partial matches make for very defensive coding indeed. The possible scenarios hurt me head, but good fun. I am thinking about how to track a losing position...so no unmatched bets but where greening/off setting is unequal and a loss is increasing over time.Not sure if that is possible but will see how I go