Can you trade historical races in Bet Angel?

The sport of kings.
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iambic_pentameter
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In the financial markets, it's possible to download historical trading data and trade using a simulator.

Is there any way you could do this with Bet Angel?

Obviously the alternative is to record your own trades but I wondered if it was possible / or could be implemented into future editions?

Iambic Pentameter
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jimibt
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iambic_pentameter wrote:In the financial markets, it's possible to download historical trading data and trade using a simulator.

Is there any way you could do this with Bet Angel?

Obviously the alternative is to record your own trades but I wondered if it was possible / or could be implemented into future editions?

Iambic Pentameter
I've been asking this for quite some time. I'm hoping that the silence from the BA team means that they are not keen to disclose progress due to competition etc.. fingers xx'd. See this thread where I outline the benefits for the consumer and the BA brand: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=11983
iambic_pentameter
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Hi Jimibt

Thanks for reply and that thread.

Iambic
Bluesky
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I'm surprised none of the software companies have introduced this so far. As you say it has been available for financial markets for many years. I assume there must be some technical reason why no one has done it, not sure what that might be though.
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jimibt
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Bluesky wrote:I'm surprised none of the software companies have introduced this so far. As you say it has been available for financial markets for many years. I assume there must be some technical reason why no one has done it, not sure what that might be though.
i won't give details for obvious reasons, but there is one vendor offering this historical market back-testing facility at present. i imagine this is pretty high on the BA priority list as a result.
convoysur-2
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there is a software out there for this ,ive seen it couple of months ago.i cant remember the name,,but its there and they have videos etc,
keep searching ull find it,ill look in my bookmarks and if i find it ill pm u.
Marc
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Euler
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Trouble is guys, it's not really the holy grail, it's better to model a market and project from there and focus on getting in before the move starts or focus or on your fill. Historical data is fine, but I don't think you will find an edge there.

Based on what we know, the amount being charged for historical data is off-putting for most. You have to spend a lot of money to get anything useful. You need a lot of data!

Betfair have the data and could make it available and have suggested this may be the case at certain points, so we have been reluctant to invest (what is ultimately) your money developing a solution if Betfair then go and expose it anyhow!

We have collected a load of data but can't publish without a license and the associated fees. So I would suggest using Excel and other stuff while an alternative solution comes to fruit. Paying an arm and a leg for data doesn't really make economic sense given what you would learn from it.
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Euler
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A good case in point is Tennis Trader, that's a model built on bucket loads of data and it's based on the actual score as well. If you pay £10k for the data, you end up in exactly the same place and Tennis trader is free in Bet Angel. We've done all the work for you!

I'm not trying to pour water on the idea, just trying to give you some of my experience on it.
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jimibt
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Euler wrote:A good case in point is Tennis Trader, that's a model built on bucket loads of data and it's based on the actual score as well. If you pay £10k for the data, you end up in exactly the same place and Tennis trader is free in Bet Angel. We've done all the work for you!

I'm not trying to pour water on the idea, just trying to give you some of my experience on it.
PW - how about taking the middle road on this and providing *test markets* in xml (or json) format that can be used as is, or overwritten using the same file spec. this way, you stay out of the mix and those that can adapt to reflect the market can update the xml as required.

i'll be honest, my use case for this type of market replay is based on finessing the nuances of the 10% that occur at the end of many races and ultimately put me off of IR trading. having a halfway house that I could populate with my own *data* (i.e. a known xml test file) would be more than enough for me. my mileage may vary from others, but i'm focussing on calibrating entry and exit points, rather than fill per se.

have a think, dismiss if not en vogue but look at how to service that middle grey area that many of us can cope with and are probably willing to privately share with others that don't have the expertise -that way BA remains above the competition (whose name again I still won't divulge -tho who have found an excellent cost effective way of providing this service!).

pw -go for it, if exchanges are the way fwd [sic], then surely a rigorous approach to backtesting is part of the game.
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workpeter
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Not sure how trading on past markets with simulated money is any better than trading on live markets with simulated money. Seems like a lot of work for the developers to give you no real benefit. Thing is, there are so many races every day, so plenty of opportunity to practice. When the markets close, spend time analyzing your data.
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jimibt
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workpeter wrote:Not sure how trading on past markets with simulated money is any better than trading on live markets with simulated money. Seems like a lot of work for the developers to give you no real benefit. Thing is, there are so many races every day, so plenty of opportunity to practice. When the markets close, spend time analyzing your data.
peter, you disappoint :D. *Seems like a lot of work for the developers...*. whilst i agree that there are many markets every day, tweaking rules live is only for the faint hearted - been there, not advisable.

for any product that evolves and becomes a world class leader (as BA undoubtedly has), work has to be done. not all of that work has immediate quantifiable benefit. for any product that is seriously presenting a rules based engine, a backtesting facility is a must (it's the same with any software platform. loadtesting, integration testing etc - all are key facets required in order to support the extension of features). for any product that wants to compete with other rules based applications (i won't of course mention what that product is called), it must look out to see if competition exists within that domain and see if there's a way to grab some of those customers who may use product B due to that particular offering.

peter, i know this is a pretty polarised topic and it's obvious where i stand on things but as i suggested in a previous post, there are simple(r) ways to allow a test market to be statically linked to the application via an editable xml file which the end user could use as-is or if more savvy, could edit to simulate a previous market condition. i'd be more than happy to lessen the developer workload by proposing that as a halfway house. that way, one half of the divide gets something to work with, the other half can safely ignore it.
Bluesky
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This all sounds a lot more complicated than I was expecting. It sounds like jimibt is an IT professional unfortunately most of what he has said has gone right over my head, that's my fault btw not his.

I was hoping to just click on a couple of buttons and hey presto I could practice in simulation mode on some past races, like one can with financial markets.

The point someone made regarding there are plenty of races is a fair one, yes there are lots of races, but sometimes they are at inconvenient times. I thought if it was not too difficult or costly to implement pervious racing data then that would have been handy for newbies or even oldbies that are still loosing money.

It appears that this is a lot more difficult and expensive than I imagined.
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ruthlessimon
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Euler wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:16 pm
Trouble is guys, it's not really the holy grail, it's better to model a market and project from there and focus on getting in before the move starts or focus or on your fill. Historical data is fine, but I don't think you will find an edge there.
Sorry to bring this back, but I still can't get my head around this - & I'm as open-minded as they come :) !

7 figure traders in the city, live & die, by being able to replay their strategies & models to hone their execution skills. I can't believe why BF trading should be so different.
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ShaunWhite
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ruthlessimon wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:02 pm
Euler wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:16 pm
Trouble is guys, it's not really the holy grail, it's better to model a market and project from there and focus on getting in before the move starts or focus or on your fill. Historical data is fine, but I don't think you will find an edge there.
Sorry to bring this back, but I still can't get my head around this - & I'm as open-minded as they come :) !

7 figure traders in the city, live & die, by being able to replay their strategies & models to hone their execution skills. I can't believe why BF trading should be so different.
I was lost at " it's better to model a market and project from there"

Can you point me (us?) to any further reading on how to do this? I've seen a couple things relating to financials but not for sports markets which can behave quite differently.
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ShaunWhite
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In fact, a whole series on how to develop, test and document strategies, from either a hunch or 'modelling' would be incredibly useful.

You've often given us all a fish, but what I want is the net....or a clue to where I can learn how to make a net :)
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