My trading journey so far (I'd love to hear yours too)

The sport of kings.
Post Reply
mobius
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:15 am

Le tiss just posted this from Dan Weston
excerpt
FROM DAN WESTON TWEET.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
eightbo
Posts: 2154
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:19 pm
Location: Malta / Australia

arbitrage16 wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 am
"Amateur traders think losses and being wrong are threats to their well-being. Professionals see them as an opportunity to learn" Yvan B.
Indeed. Can't remember who said this but someone I follow referred to successful traders as "professional losers". I loved that statement.

It's all well and good knowing losses aren't a threat but it's a separate part of the brain which gets activated when you actually have to stomach one! :mrgreen:
wearthefoxhat wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:55 am
I recently watched a youtube documentary on quants. (posted up 5 years ago)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OINqYdkhOAw
I've just opened this and looking forward to watching it, cheers :)
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

a great watch, thanks for sharing,

as for my journey so to speak it has been one long roller coaster, although it is something I absolutely love doing,

Apologies for the exhaustive post but here goes,

I can't remember when I started looking at trading but it was due to stumbling across both BFBOTMANAGER & Caan's blog & video's on YT, bought CB's Pre Race Guide & Video Pack after earning £100 on BFBM through backing & laying at SP one Saturday, until then I hadn't a clue on horse racing but thought to myself, "it can't be that easy can it?", so I didn't pursue that method through scepticism & looked more to trading manually.

Think this was around October 2014 when I first discovered trading through Caan & during this time I didn't take it that seriously as I was running an online business which was growing & looked to set up a B&M set up to accompany the online set up, things were going quite well as I was doing this the for some reason I started to lose interest in running the business, the B&M idea fell through with the estate agent & the house started looking like a tip what with the stock (Christmas was a nightmare) so I wrapped the business up & looked to trade full time to which I attended a course at Bet Angel HQ down in Hook, rented an office out & basically took the bull by the horns, I'm pretty much a do now & think later kind of guy, in hindsight I took the wrong course, I should've attended the Masterclass instead of the Horse Racing Workshop.

I was pretty stupid really, well very stupid, why?, well because I thought that after going on the course I'd cracked it, the thing is I hadn't taken into consideration all the other stuff that goes into daily trading Pre Race, if I'm honest I think that particular day course could be improved, no disrespect to Dave or Peter but I think more could've been discussed on the mechanics of the markets better, however that's why I think I should've gone on the other course as I think this is gone into more detail there.

There are things with trading that are I think overlooked or easily forgotten about, like for example looking for opportunities that aren't there, getting overconfident, totally misreading markets with similar "fabric" which turn out to be a totally different material, how two days are never the same, how Betfair works in tandem with exchange software, in fact there's loads of stuff that only come to light with experience, so that's why I say use low stakes to start off with, there are so many variables to daliy Pre Race Trading.. so many.

The office idea was a disaster, too much going on in the building, frequent false fire alarms, being able to hear telephone conversations in the corridors, was asked to be moved but it didn't work out so I sacked that off to continue trading from home.

Since leaving the office I've gone back to work twice & quite to do this full time & as I type in a full time job but off sick with I think damaged tendons in left foot, just waiting an MRI Scan so ATM in a position to sit behind my desk full time which has been useful as I have picked up on things during this time.

If I can give anyone any advice to anyone looking to get involved with trading it would be this.

Don't quit your job, save a bundle of cash, say £2k to 3k (or what ever you're comfortable with) & learn HOW the markets work, don't just GUESS where the way the price will go, DON'T get in because you WANT to be RIGHT, if you persist with this you WILL learn HOW the markets move & why, & for gods sake use SMALL stakes because you will be able to learn how the markets move with small stakes, you need to fully understand why things happen.

Trading has at times been incredibly frustrating for me & I've fell in & out of love with it numerous times, however whenever I've come back to it I've learned a little bit more each & every time,

Have to be honest & admit that I've lost a small fortune with pursuing this, more than the aforementioned £2k~£3k, however it's not the amount that bothers me, what does bother me is the amount of time it's taking me to get to a level where I'm able to do this fulltime, and that's why I think I have to travel back down to Hook sometime to confirm what I think what I've learnt from when I was last down there.

Thanks for reading.
User avatar
wearthefoxhat
Posts: 3205
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am

Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 am

in hindsight I took the wrong course, I should've attended the Masterclass instead of the Horse Racing Workshop.
You probably know more than you realise. I think the brain can reach information overload and if some ideas/thoughts aren't written down or logged somewhere, can be lost in translation or morph into something else.

Some of my better ideas have been produced when I've switched off completely from all things to do with that subject. The brain somehow resets and by reviewing previous notes/work helps me move forward with more juice.

In your case, I'd approach Peter to see if a 121 trading session could be set up. As a previous customer and B.A user, it could be time well spent. Not sure if it's available but that's how I'd approach it.
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

wearthefoxhat wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:00 pm
Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 am

in hindsight I took the wrong course, I should've attended the Masterclass instead of the Horse Racing Workshop.
In your case, I'd approach Peter to see if a 121 trading session could be set up. As a previous customer and B.A user, it could be time well spent. Not sure if it's available but that's how I'd approach it.
I have asked the question but unfortunately he doesn't have the time
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 9731
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:04 pm
I have asked the question but unfortunately he doesn't have the time
Time = money, pay enough and I'm sure the time would be found.
A full day off? That's got to be worth 3 grand+ to a guy like pw.
Trader Pat
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 am
a great watch, thanks for sharing,

as for my journey so to speak it has been one long roller coaster, although it is something I absolutely love doing,

Apologies for the exhaustive post but here goes,

I can't remember when I started looking at trading but it was due to stumbling across both BFBOTMANAGER & Caan's blog & video's on YT, bought CB's Pre Race Guide & Video Pack after earning £100 on BFBM through backing & laying at SP one Saturday, until then I hadn't a clue on horse racing but thought to myself, "it can't be that easy can it?", so I didn't pursue that method through scepticism & looked more to trading manually.

Think this was around October 2014 when I first discovered trading through Caan & during this time I didn't take it that seriously as I was running an online business which was growing & looked to set up a B&M set up to accompany the online set up, things were going quite well as I was doing this the for some reason I started to lose interest in running the business, the B&M idea fell through with the estate agent & the house started looking like a tip what with the stock (Christmas was a nightmare) so I wrapped the business up & looked to trade full time to which I attended a course at Bet Angel HQ down in Hook, rented an office out & basically took the bull by the horns, I'm pretty much a do now & think later kind of guy, in hindsight I took the wrong course, I should've attended the Masterclass instead of the Horse Racing Workshop.

I was pretty stupid really, well very stupid, why?, well because I thought that after going on the course I'd cracked it, the thing is I hadn't taken into consideration all the other stuff that goes into daily trading Pre Race, if I'm honest I think that particular day course could be improved, no disrespect to Dave or Peter but I think more could've been discussed on the mechanics of the markets better, however that's why I think I should've gone on the other course as I think this is gone into more detail there.

There are things with trading that are I think overlooked or easily forgotten about, like for example looking for opportunities that aren't there, getting overconfident, totally misreading markets with similar "fabric" which turn out to be a totally different material, how two days are never the same, how Betfair works in tandem with exchange software, in fact there's loads of stuff that only come to light with experience, so that's why I say use low stakes to start off with, there are so many variables to daliy Pre Race Trading.. so many.

The office idea was a disaster, too much going on in the building, frequent false fire alarms, being able to hear telephone conversations in the corridors, was asked to be moved but it didn't work out so I sacked that off to continue trading from home.

Since leaving the office I've gone back to work twice & quite to do this full time & as I type in a full time job but off sick with I think damaged tendons in left foot, just waiting an MRI Scan so ATM in a position to sit behind my desk full time which has been useful as I have picked up on things during this time.

If I can give anyone any advice to anyone looking to get involved with trading it would be this.

Don't quit your job, save a bundle of cash, say £2k to 3k (or what ever you're comfortable with) & learn HOW the markets work, don't just GUESS where the way the price will go, DON'T get in because you WANT to be RIGHT, if you persist with this you WILL learn HOW the markets move & why, & for gods sake use SMALL stakes because you will be able to learn how the markets move with small stakes, you need to fully understand why things happen.

Trading has at times been incredibly frustrating for me & I've fell in & out of love with it numerous times, however whenever I've come back to it I've learned a little bit more each & every time,

Have to be honest & admit that I've lost a small fortune with pursuing this, more than the aforementioned £2k~£3k, however it's not the amount that bothers me, what does bother me is the amount of time it's taking me to get to a level where I'm able to do this fulltime, and that's why I think I have to travel back down to Hook sometime to confirm what I think what I've learnt from when I was last down there.

Thanks for reading.


Interesting read Korattt,

Just like me it seems you've been guilty of putting the cart before the horse more than once?

I've done the Bet Angel masterclass and the horse racing workshop. I did the masterclass a few years back now and didnt get as much from it as I should have but that was all down to me. At that point I was still guilty of overstaking and going in play leading to blown banks galore. I also made the mistake of thinking you need thousands starting out which just led to bigger losses not bigger profits. It got to the point where I packed trading in (if you could call what I was doing back then trading), and came back to it about 18 months later. I had a drastically reduced bank, before I always had at least 1k this time I had €100. I found that the biggest mistake I made when losing money was setting daily targets, this was a complete disaster which led to overstaking, which led to in play, which ultimately led to blown banks. When I came back I set no targets and overnight going in play and blown banks were no longer an issue, it just didnt happen anymore because I wasnt putting pressure on myself to hit a target. This led to a period of a few months where I was just breaking even and while that was frustrating at least I wasnt losing money hand over fist anymore. When I started to turn over some modest profits I then went on the BA Horse Racing workshop and learned a hell of a lot of stuff that I still use now.

Its very tough for new traders starting out because when they come onto a forum and ask for advice they get information overload about WOM, charting, book %, ladders, automation oh and dont forget to read Trading in the Zone etc etc....

My simple advice to anyone startng out is to not spend a penny on books, ebooks, courses etc. First thing you need to do is download a free trial of the software and then spend a few hours a day just watching the markets, dont trade them just watch them. I'd do this for a week or two and write down what you understand and what you dont. Its amazing how quickly you'll start to recognise patterns repeating themselves over and over again. You can then start tackling the issues you dont understand one by one. The most important thing with trading is NOT how to profit but how to ensure your losses arent outweighing your profits on a consistent basis. If you are someone who struggles with going in play and blowing banks then you have a fundamental flaw in your mentality and approach to the markets, you must identify why this is happening and eradicate it, only then can you start to be profitable. IMO the number one reason for these issues is overstaking.

Also one final question, you have to ask yourself do you really want to spend hours every day parked in front of a computer grinding away? Everybody who trades does it for the same reason to make money but very few realise starting out just how much of a grind it can be. New traders make the mistake of thinking, 'I'm a smart guy, shouldnt take long to crack this' but intelligence has got nothing to do with your attitude to risk and how you deal with losses, and you won't learn that until you're knee deep in the markets. Unless youre very gifted you'll go through a period of losing, then breaking even and if youre lucky then turning a profit, but this can take anywhere from months to years.

On a positive note though if you can get to the point where you're turning a profit then its well worth all the effort and it brings a great sense of accomplishment, just make sure you go into it with your eyes wide open.

Good luck!
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

Trader Pat wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:09 pm
Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 am
a great watch, thanks for sharing,

as for my journey so to speak it has been one long roller coaster, although it is something I absolutely love doing..


Interesting read Korattt,

Just like me it seems you've been guilty of putting the cart before the horse more than once?..

Good luck!
Pat, I have a feeling we both attended the Horse Racing Workshop on the same day?, 03/09/16?
Trader Pat
Posts: 4327
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm

Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 2:18 pm
Pat, I have a feeling we both attended the Horse Racing Workshop on the same day?, 03/09/16?
Yeah didnt think it was that long ago! :D
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

ShaunWhite wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:48 pm
Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:04 pm
I have asked the question but unfortunately he doesn't have the time
Time = money, pay enough and I'm sure the time would be found.
A full day off? That's got to be worth 3 grand+ to a guy like pw.
yes it is a shame as it would benefit us both
eightbo
Posts: 2154
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:19 pm
Location: Malta / Australia

Thanks for sharing, Korattt
Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 am
It's not the amount that bothers me, what does bother me is the amount of time it's taking me to get to a level where I'm able to do this fulltime
Perhaps the source of your frustration lies within your goals.

Motivational theory shows us that we remain satisfied and motivated when we're making tangible progress.
It's definitely healthy to have high aspirations, but if your more challenging goals aren't properly broken down, you're at risk of losing that satisfaction/motivation, and without those things it can mean we don't make further progress. I suspect this may have happened to you when you talk about falling in and out of love with trading numerous times?

For anyone who doesn't have short and medium-term goals, I'd recommend creating some by identifying your mistakes and flipping them on their head.
Try complementing this with a reward system and scale up the goals as you achieve them to enter a motivational cycle of progress.

No doubt everyone's heard that setting monetary goals or targets can be a bad idea as it can lead to forcing trades, overstaking etc., but I believe they can be justified (assuming you're following your processes correctly), if it means you'll receive a high amount of satisfaction when you achieve those goals.

For example one of my first goals was 'stick to my trading plan explicitly and earn £20' and my reward was to spend most of it on a takeaway. I was using a £100 bank at the time and this is something that I had done many times before, but it had never given me any real satisfaction until I had set it as a goal, achieved it, and experienced the reward. Checking our goals off allows our brain to translate that into knowledge that we're making progress, fueling our momentum forward.

I think too many novice traders (myself included) tend to look for that one thing wrong with their trading which, if they could just fix, would of course mean they would be a profitable trader! That idea is so pleasant to our imaginations that it enters our minds so easily. Of course the reality is there's many factors which make someone profitable and so it makes sense to be setting goals (and making progress) in different areas, just don't focus on too many things at once.

Constantly having a goal just around the corner (scaling up existing goals) should help you focus on each day and reviewing a list of your completed goals can be a great tool to boost confidence in the future.
Korattt
Posts: 2405
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:46 pm

eightbo wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 9:41 pm
Thanks for sharing, Korattt
Korattt wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 5:27 am
It's not the amount that bothers me, what does bother me is the amount of time it's taking me to get to a level where I'm able to do this fulltime
Perhaps the source of your frustration lies within your goals.

Motivational theory shows us that we remain satisfied and motivated when we're making tangible progress.
It's definitely healthy to have high aspirations, but if your more challenging goals aren't properly broken down, you're at risk of losing that satisfaction/motivation, and without those things it can mean we don't make further progress. I suspect this may have happened to you when you talk about falling in and out of love with trading numerous times?

For anyone who doesn't have short and medium-term goals, I'd recommend creating some by identifying your mistakes and flipping them on their head.
Try complementing this with a reward system and scale up the goals as you achieve them to enter a motivational cycle of progress.

No doubt everyone's heard that setting monetary goals or targets can be a bad idea as it can lead to forcing trades, overstaking etc., but I believe they can be justified (assuming you're following your processes correctly), if it means you'll receive a high amount of satisfaction when you achieve those goals.

For example one of my first goals was 'stick to my trading plan explicitly and earn £20' and my reward was to spend most of it on a takeaway. I was using a £100 bank at the time and this is something that I had done many times before, but it had never given me any real satisfaction until I had set it as a goal, achieved it, and experienced the reward. Checking our goals off allows our brain to translate that into knowledge that we're making progress, fueling our momentum forward.

I think too many novice traders (myself included) tend to look for that one thing wrong with their trading which, if they could just fix, would of course mean they would be a profitable trader! That idea is so pleasant to our imaginations that it enters our minds so easily. Of course the reality is there's many factors which make someone profitable and so it makes sense to be setting goals (and making progress) in different areas, just don't focus on too many things at once.

Constantly having a goal just around the corner (scaling up existing goals) should help you focus on each day and reviewing a list of your completed goals can be a great tool to boost confidence in the future.
some good points there
User avatar
LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

In 1989 I finished my A-Levels. I was a number cruncher and begrudgingly decided Accountancy might be the career for me. The problem was the prospect of Accountancy bored me - I was a young lad who enjoyed the wrong things too much - I liked to drink, loved having a bet, and was constantly looking for fresh bit of skirt to chase. I thought taking a year out would be a good idea, and ended up as a Trainee Betting Shop Manager for Ladbrokes. I was the last batch of trainee managers to get sent on a course for settling bets on a calculator - we were taught how to form markets etc, and as a number cruncher I excelled. I stayed for 5 years, and didn't go into Accountancy.

A number of years later, when working in Sales, internet betting came in. As a sports punter, I loved having new companies to bet with - Bet365, Stan James, Blue Square. Then of course, Betfair arrived. Initially, I enjoyed just backing for better prices, but then started using my market making knowledge to lay whole books. Eventually, of course, I saw the benefits of just trading on prices. Initially though, I failed. I lost significant sums letting bad trades go IP. As a former punter, I had to rewire my brain to be a trader - as a punter you are used to getting a run for your money, but as a trader you sometimes have to accept a loss before the match or race has even started. That's a difficult mental obstacle to overcome for gamblers

I eventually managed it though. Come 2008, I was bored of sales, and couldn't wait for the weekends, so I could trade. I was made redundant in June 2008, and decided to give myself 6 months as a full-time trader to see if I could make it work. I'm just about to celebrate 10 years

That's my journey
User avatar
brimson25
Posts: 504
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:42 am

Did you ever have a point Le Tiss when you thought - oh bvgger, I'm not going to make this?

Asking for a friend :oops:
User avatar
LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

brimson25 wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 12:18 pm
Did you ever have a point Le Tiss when you thought - oh bvgger, I'm not going to make this?

Asking for a friend :oops:
Of course, yes

I had an eye watering loss on New Years Day 2008 (£2000), and decided I had 2 choices
A) Either Change
B) Accept Defeat

I'd got to the point where carrying on as before was no longer an option

Everytime I had a red screen, I would reward myself for trading out and accepting the loss. I remember having a phase of loving Toblerone at the time, so everytime a trade went wrong and I avoided going IP, I'd celebrate with a triangle of Toblerone! :lol:

Eventually, I found that it became second nature, and accepting red screens was simply part of the game

Another tactic of mine was how I staked. I'd noticed that my %S/R was about 75% - so even though my losing trades only equated for 25%, the losses would dwarf the winners, as I either got out too late, or would massively overstake to compensate for previous losers.

Therefore, I decided to approach this game as being all about ticks - if my tick sizes were always equal, then surely if I'm winning 75% of my trades, I must be able to at least break even, and that would be a start. If I set a target of winning £2 per tick (after greening), then that would safeguard me from disasters. That meant if I backed a 1.80 selection, the stakes would be £360. If I backed 2.42 the stakes would be £242. If I layed 6.60, the stakes would be £68 etc - I set up Excel to calculate all the permutations for me!

However, my losing trades were now always only £2 per tick, and this gave me the power to happily trade out for a loss, as I knew I was still going to be profitable over the course of the day. I basically tried to make a profit of level ticks each day, the money simply followed

Peter Webb has always been dubious about that tactic, but I can assure you, I wouldn't be here now if I hadn't done that. When you have a gambling background, the psychology of trading is far more problematic than reading graphs, or predicting the direction of a price

I don't do those level ticks now, but it was key in enabling me to intially navigate through those shark infested waters
Post Reply

Return to “Trading Horse racing”