General discussion : Professional trader?

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Euler
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:13 pm

I had a debate last night, which was more or less unresolved.

Lots of people claim to be one, but what actually would be your definition of a professional trader on Betfair? If somebody came to you and you sought advice from them as a professional what exactly should you expect them to be able to prove?

I'd be interested in what you would define a 'professional' trader? What hurdles should you jump to say you are a 'professional'?

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ShaunWhite
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:30 pm

'Professional " simply means that you're engaged in a activity as one's main paid occupation. Eg professional golfer, professional window cleaner etc.

I don't think it necessary describes a high degree of excellence or ability, but that's the usual connotation as it was usually reserved for occupations that required qualifications Eg lawyers or dentists.

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CallumPerry
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:47 pm

Manual traders aside, I think you could (and I'm trying to) do this job on the side (for now). If automation makes 20x what I make at a 'real' job - by real I mean taxable so I can keep a good credit score and get a mortgage - but you still do a 9-5 I'd still class you as professional, under certain circumstances.

You could argue a certain number of trades/markets, anything profit above what you started with or number of years active as being a good measure of one's professional status; it's such a grey area. Maybe in the context of having a conversation whereby you're telling somebody you are a professional trader, you at least need to match a minimum wage per year with your winnings?? I'm not sure.

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northbound
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:10 pm

A professional trader to me is someone who profits in excess of £20-30k a year trading.

More credible if he is not trying to sell a product or a course.

Even more credible if he could show me a simple, replicable edge or angle.

JTEDL
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Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:25 pm

If someone was to trade for a living and no other job, would that make them a 'professional trader' or a 'full time trader' or are both the same thing???

I suppose a professional trader could also have another job...and what about 'professional gambler'? I've heard that also.

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Kafkaesque
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:06 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:30 pm
'Professional " simply means that you're engaged in a activity as one's main paid occupation. Eg professional golfer, professional window cleaner etc.

I don't think it necessary describes a high degree of excellence or ability, but that's the usual connotation as it was usually reserved for occupations that required qualifications Eg lawyers or dentists.
I'd say your definition is technically correct, but needs specifications to be more than that.

For me it's, as you state, typically used for specialized professions, and not say pro Tesco cashier, because the education and qualifications, barring being completely inept, guarentees a good lifetime income. You need some specific markers, as a trader, to equal that status.

By your definition anyone could quit their day job today, make more than they would have in that job over the next week, and call themselves a pro.

- Overall black numbers on the bottom line over at least the latest 12 months.
- 6-12 months worth of your TOTAL expenses to continue your current lifestyle, ring-fenced outside of your bankroll, and earned through trading.

Somewhere in that region would be my definition.

Derek27
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:23 am

I don't think there's a clear definition but technically, if you work full time as a painter, don't make enough money to live on and have to live off your savings, you could still call yourself a professional painter simply because you are charging and earning. Nevertheless, you would be misleading people by calling yourself professional because they're likely to assume you're making a living from it.

Of course, the word professional is an adjective as well as a noun, meaning of a high (professional) standard, and calling yourself a professional at anything, can and is bound to be taken as doing it to a professional standard. Perhaps the term crap professional would come in useful - I do remember a very honest woman who said her husband's a part-time window cleaner but not very good at it and takes ages to do each window. :)

TipTopTrader
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:17 am

I would wan't them to prove they have made over 100k per year for at least 5 years straight.Premium charge included.

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ShaunWhite
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:56 am

7 replies, 7 different opinions.

That probably just proves that once you're past the dictionary definition then it's entirely subjective. TipTopTraders definition even requires them to have specific life objectives, like earning more than necessary and not having occassional years off.

The safest thing to do is to expect a very low dictionary definition threshold when people use the term to describe themselves, and assume slightly higher threshold if someone is being described by someone else.

I tend to view people who feel the need to prefix their job with 'professional' as being a bit insecure and needy, it's entirely unnecessary fluff when the term has been so bastardised. If you make a living as a plumber you're a plumber, 'professional plumber' adds nothing. Ditto Trader. It's more informative though where the activity would be an unlikely way to earn a living and sound more like a hobby, like a professional Scrabble player or professional YouTuber.

JTEDL
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Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:18 am

ShaunWhite wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:56 am
I tend to view people who feel the need to prefix their job with 'professional' as being a bit insecure and needy, it's entirely unnecessary fluff when the term has been so bastardised. If you make a living as a plumber you're a plumber, 'professional plumber' adds nothing. Ditto Trader. It's more informative though where the activity would be an unlikely way to earn a living and sound more like a hobby, like a professional Scrabble player or professional YouTuber.
^ this, it's just a way to make you appear better - I can't think of many jobs/professions where some calls themselves a 'professional xxxxxx' -eg teachers,doctors, accountants, shop assistants, plumbers etc etc.

Do shares/forex/futures traders call themselves 'pro' ?

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