Whilst Betfair state that their minimum bet size is £1, it is quite possible to use a lower stake using Bet Angel software.
The question is. If I do this am I going to get a knuckle wrapping email from Betfair if I place low stakes on a regular basis. (for purposes of live testing).
About 15 or more years ago, when the minimum was £2, I found a way of doing just that on the BF exchange. A few days later I got an email from them telling me that I was breaking the rules and would be blocked if I were to continue. Naturally I did stop but now I find lots of people saying they are using stakes of sub £1.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
Betfair Minimum Bet. Definitive answer please.
The last time I looked, according to their T&C, they can close your account for sub-minimum bets, but I reckon you would have to submit 100s or 1000s of them. Sub-minimum bets are essential when greening up a small profit and sometimes 50 pence of a bet may get matched, so it's not the users fault if he has to close trade for less than £1.wje200 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:03 pmWhilst Betfair state that their minimum bet size is £1, it is quite possible to use a lower stake using Bet Angel software.
The question is. If I do this am I going to get a knuckle wrapping email from Betfair if I place low stakes on a regular basis. (for purposes of live testing).
About 15 or more years ago, when the minimum was £2, I found a way of doing just that on the BF exchange. A few days later I got an email from them telling me that I was breaking the rules and would be blocked if I were to continue. Naturally I did stop but now I find lots of people saying they are using stakes of sub £1.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
I avoid closing trades for less than £1 unless it's my last close and I've written my automation to do the same, but I don't think it's anything to worry about unless you're bombarding the exchange with sub £1 bets.
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jamesedwards
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There are practises involving sub-minimum bets that might get you in trouble. eg penny pinching or rounding abuse. You haven't been stealing 2p's from Derek on the football have you? 
Otherwise I'd imagine you'd need to be making thousands of transactions to even alert BF to your behaviour.
Otherwise I'd imagine you'd need to be making thousands of transactions to even alert BF to your behaviour.
It's difficult to know what Betfair would do in scenarios that don't often occur, but I'm guessing if you constantly place sub £1 bets they will get annoyed. Although you're placing an initial £1, it doesn't get matched, so they might see your average sized matched bet is 60 pence.
It does feel as though it's one person doing it, but I reckon since Betfair changed their algorithm, the penny shavers have just stepped up to tuppence.jamesedwards wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:11 pmThere are practises involving sub-minimum bets that might get you in trouble. eg penny pinching or rounding abuse. You haven't been stealing 2p's from Derek on the football have you?
Otherwise I'd imagine you'd need to be making thousands of transactions to even alert BF to your behaviour.
As far as I'm aware its only when purposely trying to take advantage of something, ie, shaving or rounding etc, although they closed a long exsising loop hole with how bets were rounded a few years ago, at which time extra logging was added to BA so you'll get a very specfic message if your bet was rejected due to thisDerek27 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:28 pmIt's difficult to know what Betfair would do in scenarios that don't often occur, but I'm guessing if you constantly place sub £1 bets they will get annoyed. Although you're placing an initial £1, it doesn't get matched, so they might see your average sized matched bet is 60 pence.
If you are getting loads of those errors then intentional or not BF will be contacting you sooner or later, but otherwise if a greening bet requires a sub min stake (which they often do for those trading with smaller stakes) even if done with automation many times a day they are happy to let it slide providing its just that
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jamesedwards
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Just seen you specifically say "for purposes of live testing".wje200 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:03 pmWhilst Betfair state that their minimum bet size is £1, it is quite possible to use a lower stake using Bet Angel software.
The question is. If I do this am I going to get a knuckle wrapping email from Betfair if I place low stakes on a regular basis. (for purposes of live testing).
About 15 or more years ago, when the minimum was £2, I found a way of doing just that on the BF exchange. A few days later I got an email from them telling me that I was breaking the rules and would be blocked if I were to continue. Naturally I did stop but now I find lots of people saying they are using stakes of sub £1.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
If you are trading in-play then stakes below £1 will not necessarily behave the same way as stakes above £1. This is because it takes Bet Angel twice as long to achieve the desired position in the market because it has to make two separate trades. eg a £1 trade on a horse race in-running will take 1 sec to hit the market, but a 90p trade will take 2 secs.
I always trade at the official £1 minimum when live testing for this reason.
A sincere thank you for all your answers.
I half expected someone one here to say they had fallen foul of the Betfair rules, but that seems not to be the case. Maybe a lot has changed in the last 15+ years since my last strike.
So! I'm going to give it a try for maybe a week with 20p stakes. If it works then I'll be shifting to over £1 bets. They are all pre-race so I shouldn't come up against the in-play delay. (But that info is good to know.)
If Betfair do email mail me this will technically by my second strike. I don't know how long their memory is nor what they will do about it. But I will report back to this thread if there are consequences.
Just as an aside. I am well aware that trading in practice mode is not the same as live mode. But I really do have to complement whoever wrote the software for practice mode, some real thought has gone into making it as realistic as it can be. It is clear that the fake money bets join the queue of real money and that partial bets are taken just like the real thing. Whoever you are, well done.
I half expected someone one here to say they had fallen foul of the Betfair rules, but that seems not to be the case. Maybe a lot has changed in the last 15+ years since my last strike.
So! I'm going to give it a try for maybe a week with 20p stakes. If it works then I'll be shifting to over £1 bets. They are all pre-race so I shouldn't come up against the in-play delay. (But that info is good to know.)
If Betfair do email mail me this will technically by my second strike. I don't know how long their memory is nor what they will do about it. But I will report back to this thread if there are consequences.
Just as an aside. I am well aware that trading in practice mode is not the same as live mode. But I really do have to complement whoever wrote the software for practice mode, some real thought has gone into making it as realistic as it can be. It is clear that the fake money bets join the queue of real money and that partial bets are taken just like the real thing. Whoever you are, well done.
Last edited by wje200 on Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Does that still happen?
A few years back I heard numerous tales of users getting their backsides tanned for using practice mode, but I've not heard that for a while
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sionascaig
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I would be surprised if BF take any action. I usually test automation on v small stakes (less than min) and have 30 odd thousand of transactions (on one bot) over last few months but no BF issues.
One thing to watch out for (if you are using v low sakes) though is that the commission will be rounded up in BF's favour... And so, what should be say 6.5% on Aus horses can become over 10% due to rounding ==> which is enough to make a potentially profitable strategy seem unprofitable...
One thing to watch out for (if you are using v low sakes) though is that the commission will be rounded up in BF's favour... And so, what should be say 6.5% on Aus horses can become over 10% due to rounding ==> which is enough to make a potentially profitable strategy seem unprofitable...
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The Silk Run
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I have been using minimal stakes for almost five years without any conversations with Betfair, and never heard of anybody else experiencing any problems, sanctions, etc.
Minimum 0.05p - Maximum 0.10p outside BSP.
As well as many other people using this MO, Developers frequently use this to test their systems.
Minimum 0.05p - Maximum 0.10p outside BSP.
As well as many other people using this MO, Developers frequently use this to test their systems.
I suspect Betfair have a very long memory, there's no reason to delete data about their customers, they probably archive it.
What exactly happened in your first strike? Was it just a warning email or did they suspend your account?
No it was more an "Oi! Pack it in!" which I did immediately, no suspension. Mid 2000s I think, betting on dogs. Which is why I was so surprised, returning to it all these years later, when people say they do it routinely with no problems. It is the same account. (they don't read this forum do they?
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