If you think about it the bookies are being cheated. The revenue is disappearing off course to the exchanges. This means private individuals can back and lay like bookmakers with no levy or unnecessary overheads. That was always the reason for not allowing it in the first place, it was seen as "taking revenue off course". I can remember when they would threaten to throw you out for using a mobile phone in the betting ring at a course.davetimmins wrote: This is akin to cheating - if it were bookies and not punters being cheated it wouldn't last long!
Friday 10th June
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JollyGreen
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andyfuller
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What are your views on those that run 'Bots' on a VPS?
They are using technology to beat humans using their home connections surely?
The guy sat in Europe trading pre-race is never going to beat a bot sat on a VPS with nr zero response times, surely a similar situation to what happens inrunning?
They are using technology to beat humans using their home connections surely?
The guy sat in Europe trading pre-race is never going to beat a bot sat on a VPS with nr zero response times, surely a similar situation to what happens inrunning?
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andyfuller
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Can you expand on this as I don't understand the point. I can't say I frequent tracks but in the past you could never bet inrunning on course with bookmakers? So I don't follow how these onsite inrunning players are taking money away from traditional bookmakers?JollyGreen wrote:If you think about it the bookies are being cheated. The revenue is disappearing off course to the exchanges. This means private individuals can back and lay like bookmakers with no levy or unnecessary overheads.
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andyfuller
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If anyone is allowed to do it on to the courses that allow it I don't see the issue myself. If these guys have a 'special deal' that allow them and only them to trade onsite then no that isn't a fair playing field. Is that what happens?pt9091 wrote:Totally agree, its not fair that large groups of people with deep pockets are skimming off the wee guys, in my eyes its cheating and should be stopped
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JollyGreen
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I have had many a bet in running with an on course bookie. If you stand in he ring and listen to them many will shout offers.
I think the overall problem is a bigger one than we first think. Let's face it racing is struggling with decreasing prize money, crowds etc. If a few organised teams then start to cream off money by being at the course and throwing lots of money and resources at it then many will suffer. Perhaps in running players will stop because they know they cannot beat these teams. I know a lot of ex trading room players have packed it in for that reason. I also know a lot of trading rooms have gone south because they cannot attract the players. Admittedly this is not the only reason but it means a piece of the pie that was being shared is being swallowed by the greedy few.
Please don't get me wrong, it really doesn't affect me that much at all but obviously it affects a few people on here. This is mainly a pre-race trading forum so there much be many more people being affected.
What is your view on it Andy?
I think the overall problem is a bigger one than we first think. Let's face it racing is struggling with decreasing prize money, crowds etc. If a few organised teams then start to cream off money by being at the course and throwing lots of money and resources at it then many will suffer. Perhaps in running players will stop because they know they cannot beat these teams. I know a lot of ex trading room players have packed it in for that reason. I also know a lot of trading rooms have gone south because they cannot attract the players. Admittedly this is not the only reason but it means a piece of the pie that was being shared is being swallowed by the greedy few.
Please don't get me wrong, it really doesn't affect me that much at all but obviously it affects a few people on here. This is mainly a pre-race trading forum so there much be many more people being affected.
What is your view on it Andy?
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JollyGreen
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Well I think that is more skilful because it is not just the technology you need. I have spent a lot of money on writing BOTS and all but a few have failed miserably. yes of course a fast response will help but the new Betfair data centre has removed the near zero response time...unless someone has found a new VPS supplierandyfuller wrote:What are your views on those that run 'Bots' on a VPS?
They are using technology to beat humans using their home connections surely?
The guy sat in Europe trading pre-race is never going to beat a bot sat on a VPS with nr zero response times, surely a similar situation to what happens inrunning?
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andyfuller
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If anyone is allowed to go to these tracks that allow it and not just the special few I have no problem at all with it, if anything I have respect for these guys. If however, you and I couldn't go and try it but others are allowed to then I do have a problem as that is clearly not an open market.
Just because there is a high barrier to entry in terms of cost does not imo make it unfair. These people have clearly taken risks investing in this method and a time advantage alone is not enough imo to make you successful you also require other skills.
You sound as though you don't have an issue with the people who used to play from exchange rooms who were effectively doing the same as the oncourse people, exploiting a time advantage. What has changed now though seems that someone has just found a quicker method than they have and they don't like it. They were still taking advantage of the time difference between the exchange shop and the home players.
It really isn't that different imo to pre race trading where you have had people such as Peter Webb and many others who have for years been using VPS's and bots to take advantage of the speed these technologies brought to exploit opportunities in the market. Yes the time difference isn't as big but there still is a big enough time difference to make it worth their while.
I have no issue with that and you could basically say using paultomo argument that they are insider trading - imo I respect them for investing time and money into doing these things.
There are still plenty of opportunities inrunning and pre race despite these things it just seems that some people are failing to adapt to the changing markets.
Just because there is a high barrier to entry in terms of cost does not imo make it unfair. These people have clearly taken risks investing in this method and a time advantage alone is not enough imo to make you successful you also require other skills.
You sound as though you don't have an issue with the people who used to play from exchange rooms who were effectively doing the same as the oncourse people, exploiting a time advantage. What has changed now though seems that someone has just found a quicker method than they have and they don't like it. They were still taking advantage of the time difference between the exchange shop and the home players.
It really isn't that different imo to pre race trading where you have had people such as Peter Webb and many others who have for years been using VPS's and bots to take advantage of the speed these technologies brought to exploit opportunities in the market. Yes the time difference isn't as big but there still is a big enough time difference to make it worth their while.
I have no issue with that and you could basically say using paultomo argument that they are insider trading - imo I respect them for investing time and money into doing these things.
There are still plenty of opportunities inrunning and pre race despite these things it just seems that some people are failing to adapt to the changing markets.
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davetimmins
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JG,
Does this mean that the racecourses are colluding with these teams by providing services such as live TV feeds internet etc? Surely they can't get that much income from this. I would think on-course bookmakers would be miffed about it - on second thoughts I think some of these guys are ex-bookies!
Andy,
I have no problems people finding an edge and exploiting it. The issue is that the sums involved are huge and skew the whole IR market at times. I do agree that racecourses should open the whole thing up to anyone who wants to trade on-course, but maybe that would kill it. The big guys wouldn't want to know anymore
Does this mean that the racecourses are colluding with these teams by providing services such as live TV feeds internet etc? Surely they can't get that much income from this. I would think on-course bookmakers would be miffed about it - on second thoughts I think some of these guys are ex-bookies!
Andy,
I have no problems people finding an edge and exploiting it. The issue is that the sums involved are huge and skew the whole IR market at times. I do agree that racecourses should open the whole thing up to anyone who wants to trade on-course, but maybe that would kill it. The big guys wouldn't want to know anymore
I've mixed opinions on clock beaters. I think they earn the best returns with the lowest risk. Often there is no risk so it's difficult to see how they are not net -ve for the whole ecosystem. However, there is no such thing as easy money and the low hanging fruit went a long time ago and I imagine the margins on this sort of activity are much smaller than they used to be.
One side effect of the racing on course stuff is that it makes a farce of the Betfair SP quite often. I think this is something that Betfair should address as "SP" most certainly does not mean "starting price".
One side effect of the racing on course stuff is that it makes a farce of the Betfair SP quite often. I think this is something that Betfair should address as "SP" most certainly does not mean "starting price".
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JollyGreen
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Like I said it doesn't really bother me that much as pre race is my main bag. I mentioned before that I did this many years ago and was laughed at by many who saw it as folly. I even tried it with Peter and we had some fun...mind you I think Peter had he better job as I was getting rained on in no uncertain terms!!
I know many who go to the track and what I will say is it likely to be short lived. Many are going in the hope of instant riches but these boys are playing to tight margins and having spoken to some of them I can tell you that not all of them really see the true risk. I saw one guy bet £20K on a horse at 1.07 after it has "supposedly" jumped the last obstacle. The jockey fell off and this guys trousers filled up....if you get my drift
He repeated the dose a day later backing £18K on a 1.09 shot only for it to get caught on the line. Many of them get excited each time they see a few hundred pounds hitting their P&L but when it hits the fan they suddenly realise they need another 8 9 or 10 consecutive winners to break even. Some have the financial clout to do that but many fall by the wayside.
IMHO I think they'll all be fighting one another soon for the same slice of an ever shrinking pie and not many will survive.
There are only so many spaces available at the track and these teams have bought up almost all of them. That means the average player is not going to get a look in.
I know many who go to the track and what I will say is it likely to be short lived. Many are going in the hope of instant riches but these boys are playing to tight margins and having spoken to some of them I can tell you that not all of them really see the true risk. I saw one guy bet £20K on a horse at 1.07 after it has "supposedly" jumped the last obstacle. The jockey fell off and this guys trousers filled up....if you get my drift
He repeated the dose a day later backing £18K on a 1.09 shot only for it to get caught on the line. Many of them get excited each time they see a few hundred pounds hitting their P&L but when it hits the fan they suddenly realise they need another 8 9 or 10 consecutive winners to break even. Some have the financial clout to do that but many fall by the wayside.
IMHO I think they'll all be fighting one another soon for the same slice of an ever shrinking pie and not many will survive.
There are only so many spaces available at the track and these teams have bought up almost all of them. That means the average player is not going to get a look in.
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andyfuller
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I would say the people playing onsite require skill as well, just like the people in the exchange rooms did. If all you need to do is rock up it won't be long until more and more people start turning up to get their bit of the pie. Why don't you do it out of interest?JollyGreen wrote:Well I think that is more skilful because it is not just the technology you need. I have spent a lot of money on writing BOTS and all but a few have failed miserably. yes of course a fast response will help but the new Betfair data centre has removed the near zero response time...unless someone has found a new VPS supplier
I appreciate you put skill into your Bots but I know of people who with no knowledge of racing at all made a lot of money and still do from bots, they just use the knowledge and technology to make money from the markets.
The advantage the VPS's brought was around for a hell of a long time and some people made a hell of a lot of money effectively sitting on the Betfair server running these bots and still do make good money from them and are always looking for how to get a slightly better time advantage as you show by your comment about news of the new VPS site, the VPS was a very well kept 'secret' for a long time. But once knowledge of something like that comes into the public domain the advantage is soon gone.
The advantage of being oncourse will also go eventually as more people enter the market I believe.
People have been saying for a long time people using faster pictures will kill off the markets but the markets still go and good money can still be made form them.
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JollyGreen
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Well I can only speak from my experience. When I first tried this none of the courses would allow it. They all told me it was not acceptable for me to trade from their boxes. I used a laptop and a tablet PC and had mixed reactions, some tried to eject me, some politely advised me to desist and some turned a blind eye.davetimmins wrote:JG,
Does this mean that the racecourses are colluding with these teams by providing services such as live TV feeds internet etc? Surely they can't get that much income from this. I would think on-course bookmakers would be miffed about it - on second thoughts I think some of these guys are ex-bookies!
I know that you can expect to pay £100 - £150 per day in a box and that box will usually hold 12-15 players.
I do know ex-bookies who used to make their living by using SiS at home but I am not sure if they still bother?
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davetimmins
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It's an interesting discussion. One thing is true, the market changes and evolves all the time and you have to adapt to it. As Peter says, you can't stand still.
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andyfuller
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I agree that the faster you can see something the lower your risk but surely the same argument could be used about some of your bots or your trading that took advantage of the time advantage the VPS offered, along with others, myself included? Or was the time advantage never the reason for using VPS's? I can say the time advantage was the only reason I used one for PR trading and I know the same is true for others.Euler wrote:I've mixed opinions on clock beaters. I think they earn the best returns with the lowest risk. Often there is no risk so it's difficult to see how they are not net -ve for the whole ecosystem.
I know of people who have taken advantage of this time advantage and look to do so still and whom without having the time advantage would not have made the money they did.
Fully agree with this - the BFSP at times is a joke because of this and should be renamed the BF 'a few strides into the race' starting price.Euler wrote:One side effect of the racing on course stuff is that it makes a farce of the Betfair SP quite often. I think this is something that Betfair should address as "SP" most certainly does not mean "starting price".