Smarkets begins closing successful accounts

Locked
andyfuller
Posts: 4619
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

corbus wrote:so why should Betfair throw me out if I won 100,000 a month? I'd be one that generates a lot of business for them and they'd earn 5000 from my work.
The argument put forward is:

Lets assume you make £100,000 a month every month. So you make £1.2 million a year.

Lets assume you take that £1.2 million out of your Betfair account to spend on nice houses, fast boats and cars

Betfair have earned, to keep it simple, 5% commission = £60,000.

So Betfair now have made £60,000 from you and you have made £1.2 million before commission.

But the next year Betfair need to attract another £1.2 million into the exchange for you to win.

If it costs them £10,000 in say marketing to do this they have made £50,000 from you Net.

But if it costs them £60,000 to do this they make nothing from you.

If it costs them £120,000 to do this, it has actually cost them £60,000 to get the new £1.2 million into the exchange.

So on the face of it you may think you have earned Betfair £60,000 as you paid them that in commission but in fact you have actually cost them £60,000.

Now that is a simplistic view as the costs to Betfair and benefits are not as straight forward as I have made them out to be in the above, but hopefully the explanation helps you understand a bit better.

The ideal world for Betfair is if your £1.2 million stays in the exchange and keeps changing hands, they get 5% each time it changes hands and eventually they get the lot. So it is true Betfair want you to win, but they also want you to lose in equal proportions.
hgodden
Posts: 1759
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:13 pm

I think this is probably more a case of the market maker (either Smarkets or associates) directly losing money due to activity that costs them. On Smarkets there is probably an imbalance between market makers and punters (of which there aren't many) so in many respects it's not really making money from an exchange.
User avatar
LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

OMG Andy Fuller has disappeared to the dark side!
He sounds like a BF director :lol:
andyfuller
Posts: 4619
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

LeTiss 4pm wrote:OMG Andy Fuller has disappeared to the dark side!
He sounds like a BF director :lol:
They have given me a lovely office - used to be Bert's so they say ;) :lol:
james19
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

I am happy for Smarkets to explain away the specifics of my case.

I simply used their site in the same way that I have used Betfair and Betdaq for many years (i.e. in a profitable trading manner) and was kicked out for doing so, much to my surprise.

It's a pretty open and shut case. The feedback I got from management seems to suggest that only "certain" types of trading are acceptable at Smarkets, and anything which poses too much of a threat to the market makers will not be tolerated.

No fraud or other type of illegitimate activity has been carried out here, therefore I would appreciate the reactivation of my Smarkets account, and reassurances that winners will not be hounded out in this manner going forward.
james19
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

In answer to mugsgame, I have been using Betangel for about 2 years, and this was my first thread in the forum because I thought the case was particularly newsworthy.

I have not heard of any other exchange closing accounts that are profitable. The premium charge is obviously deplorable, but closing accounts goes one step beyond IMO, and is completely unjustifiable for anyone operating under the guise of a betting exchange. :|
andyfuller
Posts: 4619
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

As they say - it seems the ball is back in Smarkets side of the court.

James I would suggest you contact them via email as well to give them permission and probably best to get Bet Angels permission for it to be discussed here which you can pass on to Smarkets assuming BA are okay with it.

Somehow though I get the feeling this isn't going to be an open discussion. So can you expand a bit on your kind of activity on Smarkets, general points, not your specific method of winning.
corbus
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:27 am

andyfuller wrote:The ideal world for Betfair is if your £1.2 million stays in the exchange and keeps changing hands, they get 5% each time it changes hands and eventually they get the lot. So it is true Betfair want you to win, but they also want you to lose in equal proportions.
I understand... then we are all mugs here striving to find the perfect system and get rich, but when we have it, they'll throw us out if we dare take money out of their big pot... may be I am exaggerating but if this is so, it throws shadows on everything, even the very existence of Bet Angel....
james19
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

Smarkets issued a tweet yesterday saying that they have no policy of closing successful accounts.

I have documentary evidence which points to the contrary through email discussions with CEO Jason Trost, so I would really appreciate it if the company could confirm its position on successful traders as a matter of urgency.

Either winners traders are welcome or they are not. If they are welcome then could you please reactivate my account as you have no other grounds to keep it suspended.

Many Thanks
james19
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

James,

It appears I'm not being clear. I'm asking you to stop trading until you provide liquidity or until I can get more liquidity providers. I understand the principles of free markets but we are a small startup who has not yet reached critical mass.

I will put a freeze on your account if I have to but I'm asking nicely. I think I've been pretty honest with you. I would appreciate some courtesy.

Jason
User avatar
LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

OK, I can see what's happening now.

It appears it's not the amounts you're winning, it's how you're winning it

Smarkets would be happier if you won £20k, but only by offering decent liquidity to achieve it.

Are you predominately a backer or layer that hits into value, but not trading in the conventional sense?
james19
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

I am chiefly a trader, however Smarkets management first contacted me on the 22nd November to request that I stop trading on their site because the market makers can't cope with clients who green out their positions.

I thought this was a ludicrous request coming from an exchange, but reluctantly went along with them.

Thereafter I pretty much only bought and sold what i regarded to be value bets, but the CEO continued to bombard me with emails on a daily basis informing me that the market makers were still whining their heads off and he was scared he would lose them, which would pretty much mean the end of Smarkets.

Eventually management grew impatient and took the highly questionable decision to start banning winners.

The problem for Smarkets is that you can't build traction until you have liquidity, and no ordinary players are going to post prices while the market makers saturate the market. Moreover winners are evidently not welcome (a policy which will surely have to be reversed if the company holds out any hopes of coming anywhere near to challenging betfair).

All in all I am disappointed with this company. They showed some initial promise, but their current stance on winners is akin to that of bet365 pence et al.

At least five other exchanges that I know of including Betdaq and WBX also use market makers to bring liquidity to the table, but at least these guys don't complain to you directly on behalf of the market makers when you win, nor do they close successful accounts. Smarkets would do well to disassociate themselves from this practice also.
james19
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 pm

Image
User avatar
LeTiss
Posts: 5386
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Well in that case, I would withdraw any money held by these people!

Unless they wish to become another small bookmaker, Smarkets are going to fail as an exchange. You can't offer yourself as an alternative, but then close people who like to green up, that's what good trading is all about
giulio2010
Posts: 962
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:11 am

In other countries, sports trading is illegal and so there is no chance to even trying to gain profits. In Britain you have already few options, and if James is so good to profit on a small exchange what prevents him to earn money on a big exchange like Betfair. Does not smarkets just replicate Betfair odds? Do you have the account closed even there? O is just a matter of principle? Or perhaps you have accounts open in all exchanges but only managed to gain profits on smarkets?
Not that mean you have to answer all my questions, but my curiosity, at this point, is huge... ;)
Locked

Return to “Alternative betting exchanges, Smarkets, Matchbook etc.”